Marriage Protection Amendment

Next week, the U.S. Senate votes on the Marriage Protection Amendment, a proposed amendment to the U.S. Constitution which defines marriage as between a man and a woman.  I think it is imperative that those of us who support traditional marriage support this.  Focus on the Family's Citizenlink has a good FAQ on the Amendment, and why a federal amendment is needed (basically, state judges can trump state declarations by calling them unconstitutional).  Here's the text of the amendment:

Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman.

Comments

[Cineaste]

This sounds like the seperate but equal laws. I read the FAQ on the amendment and I still think there is no need for this amendment just as there is no need for an English as the official language of the United States amendment. I think laws should be passed about these issues only if it infringes upon the rights of others. Conservatives may accuse me of not respecting the sanctity of an istitution such as marriage. I disagree because I do respect the sanctity of other traditions like funerals and I support laws that protect the rights of people who's rights are being infringed upon. For example, where do you stand on this issue...

Congress Bars Military Funeral Protesters

I just don't understand how gay marriage infringes upon anyone else's rights.

[Sam]

Sigh. We're going to tarnish the greatest political document in the history of the world with one of the most unAmerican, regressive amendments that anybody can possibly imagine. And some Americans genuinely support this nonsense. How you can hate those who pose no threat to you boggles the mind.

[seeker]

No hate involved. Only morality attested to by nature and tradition. Sexual perversion is part of the moral and resulting practical decline of nations. Freedom that ends up in the acceptance of gross immorality like adultery, promiscuity, and homosexuality is an abuse of freedom.

But to make laws condoning such behaviors goes beyond personal freedom to legislating immorality. The proposed amendment, imo, is a safeguard for society. No one is removing freedoms, merely setting boundaries on what the government will condone for the good of all.

We probably need one to protect the life of the unborn too, since, like the blacks, the guarantee of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" isn't being applied to the unborn. It was not clear enough until we had an amendment that included their lives as meaningful.

[Cineaste]

Seeker, I think it would do your world view a great amount of good if one of your children, like Dick Cheney's daughter, turns out gay. I think you would still love them and it would force you to be a bit more tolerant and understanding.

Often I have heard the argument that homosexuality "goes against nature." Check out this hilarious article The FABULOUS
- - - - - - - - kingdom of GAY animals that turns this notion on it's head.

[seeker]

Do you also have a link for "The FABULOUS kingdom of Cannibalistic and Murderous Animals"?

[Stewart]

Seeker, that's absurd. Either you're suggesting that homosexuality is akin to cannibalism and murder, or (and I find this more likely) you're admitting that homosexuality is just another aspect of natural.

Cineaste is right. The best thing that could ever happen to you would be to find that one of your children was homosexual. Sadly, it would probably be the worst thing that could possibly happen to your child, because they would almost certainly lose your affection. You do not love homosexual people. You COULDN'T possibly. I wonder how much love you're capable of giving anyone, actually. You talk about Christian goodness, and loving everyone, but your behavior on this site simply doesn't reflect it. And it's not so much that you oppose same-sex marriage, and gay rights. You go beyond that. You prove your hatred, in spite of your words, by resorting to insults and grotesque comparisons.

[seeker]

Either you're suggesting that homosexuality is akin to cannibalism and murder
I am suggesting that looking to nature to justify your position is inadequate and contradictory.

[seeker]

I wonder how much love you're capable of giving anyone, actually. You talk about Christian goodness, and loving everyone, but your behavior on this site simply doesn't reflect it.

Well, your idea of love is devoid of truth, and sounds like the milk-toast counterfeit of true faith. Haven't you read about how Jesus was angry and glared at the Pharisees? How he sat down, made a whip, and then went into the temple, turned over the tables of the money changes, and drove them out with a whip? How Jesus said to his disciples "if they don't listen to you, wipe the dust off of your feet and move on? It will be [intolerable] for them on judgement day"

As I said, I am kind to my gay friends and family. But in the battle of ideas, lies need to be confronted, and illogic and justification of immorality need to be confronted, rebuffed, and not yielded to.

I'm sorry you find that unloving. But you are, IMO, merely confused about what true spirituality is about.

[FCL]

Seeker,

Enough is enough. If you want to promote hatred and bigotry, to advocate changes to the U.S. Constitution to make permanent your intolerance, then go ahead it’s your right. However, to do all that in the name of Jesus Christ is not anything but intellectual and spiritual intolerance and ignorance. We have been around this track before yet you still don’t get it. To love and forgive one’s neighbor is the essence of Christianity. Who is one’s neighbor? Everyone. How many times should we forgive? One more time than we think we should. If you think this is just “milk-toast” then go ahead and try it for just a day. Go on I dare you. It is the essence of His love that Christ paid the ultimate price for this belief by suffering death, even death upon a cross and it is the essence of our hope that we believe He conquered death on Easter morning.

Everything in Scripture, if read with an open mind and heart, teaches us about this love and forgiveness. Scripture does not condemn gays only your hatred does. Scripture does not teach exclusion only your fear does. In your quest to twist the Gospel to your paranoid style you cite a passage and promptly misinterpret it. Yes Christ drove out the money changers with a whip. The deeper question is why? It was not in an attempt to be some kind of 1st century Charles Bronson. It was to right an egregious injustice. The money changers had placed themselves in the part of the temple that was reserved for the Gentiles to pray. This is why the Gospel tells us that “Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'” (Mark 11:15-17). The notion of the Temple as a House of Prayer for all nations comes from Isaiah 56. It was the fact that the money changers violated a sacred place set aside for the outsider, for the excluded for the different that drove Jesus to such anger. It was this hatred and disrespect shown to the outsider that Jesus found so appalling. So do not use his anger to justify your attempt to denigrate and exclude an entire group of people that you hate and fear. Or more colloquially stated by Bob Dylan be one of the one’s who “say don't hate nothing at all except hatred.”

[Cineaste]

Perhaps I should direct my questions about Christianity to people like FCL instead of Seeker. I've always thought Jesus taught tolerance but Seeker preaches intolerance. FCL's sentiments seem to be more in keeping with what it means to be a true Christian than Seekers Hate(Love!) sentiments. FCL are you also a Protestant?

[FCL]

Cineaste,

Thank you for the kind words. It does not matter all that much in the larger scheme of things but I am an ELCA Lutheran. I figure if you are going to be a Protestant than you should hang with the guy who got that party started: Martin Luther.

[Cineaste]

I am not sure which denomination. I started out as a Catholic when I was a kid and I was thinking about starting to go to a church again but I realized that I know nothing about Christianity and its different denominations. I used to date a girl who went to the Unitarian church and she tried to get me to go with her. I felt it would be hypocritical to go since I am agnostic right now and it would be going through the motions only. All I know is that I am very curious about Christianity at this point in my life. I am trying to look at the Christian perspective, as the subtitle of 2or3 indicates, but so far I've been a bit shocked, puzzled and against some of the beliefs of evangelicals. Is there a big difference in what ELCA Lutherans believe? I don't even know what ELCA means, please forgive my ignorance.

[seeker]

FCL, it is your type of rediculous hermeneutic that leads to Christians being uninvolved in society and government, and leads to the tyranny and chaos of ungodliness. Your theology leads to isolationism and nicey nicey faith that never confronts, never rebukes, and is the unsalty type of faith that Jesus said is often worth nothing. You talk all of love and none of truth. It is perfectly reasonable to rebuke sinners who justify their sins, and teach that God accepts their sin. It is also acceptable to protect our children from what the bible calls "debased depravity" You call it hate. Go tell your half truths to those whom you pretend to help with your truthless love.

Everything in Scripture, if read with an open mind and heart, teaches us about this love and forgiveness. Scripture does not condemn gays only your hatred does.

Here's some scriptures on love and forgiveness for you. And speaking of condemnation, it does condemn sin, as well as self-righteousness (that is, trying to earn your righteousness). Jesus said "I don't come to condemn you, but the words I say will condemn you on the day of judgment."

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I can't wait to see you rebuke God for not being loving on that day.

Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
And along with them, those who failed to warn them. This is not a reason to cow people into fearfully converting, it's about being honest about the consequences of sin.

And again, if you don't believe that homosexuality is a sin, then your exegesis of Romans 1 is probably liberal.

And while in personal relationships, we are to be gracious and forgiving, with false teachers, that is a different story. Here's some snippets from Paul the Apostle, who according to you must be an apostle of hate:

< b>Romans 1:34-32
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith

1 Cor. 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[b] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

[Cineaste]

Your theology leads to isolationism and nicey nicey faith that never confronts, never rebukes, and is the unsalty type of faith that Jesus said is often worth nothing. -Seeker

Agrees with...

What Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem. -Monty Python, The Life of Brian

[FCL]

Seeker states “it is your type of ridiculous[sic] hermeneutic that leads to Christians being uninvolved in society and government” This is an interesting comment, especially when the tendency is much stronger among evangelicals to wall themselves off from society. Evangelicals are much more likely to home school, to associate only with church friends and otherwise reject much of any involvement with society (with the exception of course of trying to use the government to enforce their views).

As a mainline Protestant I am of the position that we should be fully engaged in society as witnesses to Christ. The question then arises: how shall we do this? We do it by faith in His work on the Cross and through His Resurrection. The Cross and the empty tomb create in us the faith to live as fully human beings. To be willing to pour yourself out for your fellow man, as Christ did is the essence of His message. Our mission is to take care of God’s good creation and everyone in it. John 13:34 gives us the essence of this new commandment: to love one another the way God loves us. You may consider this “nicey nicey faith” but it is as difficult as a heart attack to actually accomplish.

So can we ever rebuke those in error? Of course we can, that’s why I direct these posts at you. You are correct that there will indeed be a judgment. Who will be judged harshly? Scripture tells us it is the callous, hard-hearted who will be wailing and gnashing their teeth. Matthew 25:45 makes it clear “'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'” All of the passages you cite show that what is key is how we treat one another. The life of Jesus and His death and Resurrection teach us how we should do this: through love. So in response to your statement that I “talk all of love and none of truth”: love is His truth.

[FCL]

Cineaste,

Forgive my use of an acronym with the assumption you knew what it meant. ELCA stands for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. You may find much more information on their website elca.org

Peace

[seeker]

The question then arises: how shall we do this? We do it [ONLY] by faith in His work on the Cross and through His Resurrection.

I inserted the word ONLY in there to show what seems implied to me. That living a quiet, religious life seems to be the limit of your Christian world view. Do we forget about a Christian view of politics, art, education, science, medicine, finances, etc? Do we sit by while injustice is meted out? While immorality floods our culture?

You are clapping with one hand - we should be doing both what you suggest, while also being active in preaching God's righteousness and impending judgement on those who practice and promote sin. And to confront the religious hypocrites who promote sexual sin, among other sins, as acceptable.

What is your opinion on church discipline? The apostle Paul counseled in 1 Cor 5 that if a person is caught in sexual sin, he should be first privately spoken two, and if he does not repent, he is brought before a few people, and then, before the entire congregation. If he is still unrepentant, he should be disfellowshipped, and later restored with gentleness if he comes to his senses.

Unrepentant people who call themselves Christians should not even be welcomed back into fellowship if they want to continue in brazen disrespect for God.

[FCL]

Seeker,

In response to your question regarding Church discipline: I have no problem with it. I understand that we have different ideas regarding what constitutes sin. I have the weight of a reasonable interpretation of Scripture, you do not. But to the extent that sin exists it absolutely should be confronted; within and without the Church.

You are mistaken, however in claiming that living a quiet religious life is the limit of my Christian worldview. I do think this type of life remains the best and most effective witness to Jesus Christ. However, I do endorse the view that different people are called to different tasks. Paul speaks in some detail about this. We all have different strengths that can be employed in the service of Christ. The important thing for Christians to keep in mind is that whatever we do we should do for Him. We don’t have to become world famous or leader of some great movement. We can, as Paul teaches, impact the world in a myriad of small but effective ways.

So no we should not sit idly by while injustice and immorality permeate our culture. I welcome your support in opposing the injustice of an American regime that spends other people’s money wildly, misuses the awesome military power of the world’s only superpower, and continually supports the degradation of our God-given rights. We can join together to support a truly pro-life ethic not merely a pro-birth one. And we can as Christians certainly agree to join together to end the injustice of legal and cultural harassment of gays. We indeed should be teaching the world of a judgment that awaits those who perpetrate these sins. This is a social agenda that Christians can sink there teeth into. So please join me in confronting religious hypocrites, especially those in the Christian community who are hypocritical.

[seeker]

So you are what is known as "consistently pro-life"? So you are against abortion, euthanasia, and the death penalty.

I can respect that position, though I don't think it is biblical (but that is arguable).

While the current churches have some significant problems and some hypocrisies, including materialism, gluttony, and pride, I don't view the current push for sexual purity (chastity, heterosexuality, fidelity) to be persecution.

As to cultural harassment of gays, outside of the marriage issue, how are gays being harassed? I'm sure you may come up with some examples, but I think that if gays weren't pushing for redefinition of marriage to include their sexual immorality, they wouldn't be having very many problems in society.

But of course, I'm sure there are pockets of culture where gays are still perseuted, just like other minorities. But I don't think that is due particularly to the Christian "right", it's just typical for minorities in any culture to have such problems.

[Cineaste]

This about sums it up Gay Marriage Amendment